Meeting 2008-10-08

Details

  • When: Wednesday 10th October 2008 from 1830 BST (1730 GMT)

  • Where: #okfn irc channel on oftc.net (connect via Mibbit)

Agenda

Please feel free to add anything you'd like to discuss to the agenda...

  • OKCon and other events in March/April 2009

Participants

  • Josef Davies-Coates
  • Beth Tilston
  • Jonathan Gray
  • Rob Myers
  • Mike Chelen

IRC Log

(Time in CEST)

19:24:42 * qopi waves
19:24:47 * qopi is Josef
19:26:09 * bethtilston (5b6dc3ed@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn
19:26:46 qopi hi beth :)
19:26:51 qopi bethtilston: you made it :)
19:26:58 bethtilston yep
19:27:06 qopi pretty damn easy using the web interface, right? :)
19:27:19 * qopi is Josef btw
19:27:31 bethtilston yeah. Not too difficult!
19:27:44 bethtilston I was going to ask if you were here.
19:28:13 qopi indeed I am :)
19:28:22 * qopi is assuming jwyg is Jonathan Gray?
19:30:08 bethtilston Do you know if anyone else from the meeting is going to be here Josef? No Chris as he's on the train poor soul
19:31:59 * bethtilston has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:32:02 jwyg hi all!
19:32:18 * bethtilston (5b6dc3ed@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn
19:32:32 jwyg ok...
19:32:54 bethtilston oops, accidentally logged out there
19:33:07 jwyg qopi, bethtilston: are we expecting anyone else for discussion re: events next march?
19:33:36 jwyg robmyers: how's it going?
19:34:09 bethtilston No Chris, Tav or Sophia. What about Clodagh and the other guy (Italian)?
19:34:23 robmyers slowly, I've been going through the standards I found for representing infromation about artowrks and wondering how and whether to use them and what the licencing issues are.
19:34:34 * mchelen (~mike@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net) has joined #okfn
19:34:44 robmyers I've also been looking for texts. I wish Project Gutenberg used more descriptive filenames ;-)
19:34:56 jwyg robmyers: excellent!
19:35:43 qopi robmyers: I assume you know of http://pzwart.wdka.hro.nl/mdr/research/lliang/open_content_guide but pasting here just in case :)
19:35:45 robmyers information goes on the wiki. I may just define a simple standard based on what (e.g.) the Tate use with space for tags. tags are good ;-)
19:35:49 jwyg robmyers: i'm on a mailing list where there are probably people who know about this kind of thing...
19:35:53 qopi jwyg: not sure if anyone else going to turn up
19:36:23 robmyers jwyg - oh that would be handy
19:36:41 qopi doesn't look like tav is online (he's not in freenode #esp and normally is when online)
19:36:49 robmyers qopi Yes I saw Lawrence speak a couple of years ago and grabbed a print copy afterwards, it's really good.
19:37:02 qopi cool
19:37:28 robmyers jwyg - The problem seems to be that most standards are either licence encumbered in silly ways or make SGML look simple. ;-)
19:37:33 qopi jwyg: rufus said you might be tied to March, know why?
19:38:17 jwyg qopi: not sure, we'll have to check with him.
19:38:17 qopi robmyers: we're having a meeting about organising an Open Everything Open Space next year now :P
19:38:21 qopi up for getting involved?
19:38:23 qopi :)
19:38:32 jwyg qopi: COMMUNIA event is in march...
19:38:52 qopi jwyg: right, I guess its something to do with that then, WHEN in March?
19:38:56 qopi got a date yet?
19:39:50 robmyers I am at my commitment limit at the moment :-( but if it's within travelling distance of Peterborough add me to the mailing list ;-)
19:40:38 mchelen robmyers, for project gutenberg files, maybe the catalogs could be used to index or describe local copies, check out gutindex here: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Offline_Catalogs#The_GUTINDEX_Listings_of_EBooks
19:41:06 qopi bethtilston: Open Knowledge want to have OKCON (which we toying with the idea of having at the same time/space as our Open Everything Open Space) near http://www.communia-project.eu/ event happening in March
19:41:18 mchelen its a text file but the format is a little strange
19:41:45 qopi jwyg: you applied for some funding related to COMMUNIA, right? hear back from that bid?
19:42:09 jwyg qopi: for COMMUNIA we were looking at Mon-Tue 16-17th March
19:42:33 jwyg qopi: we are becoming part of COMMUNIA network, and bid for organising the March workshop...
19:42:34 bethtilston qopi: I think with us too, that would be too many all the the same time. We'd lose individual identities
19:43:03 bethtilston qopi: What do you think?
19:43:14 * qopi will be on http://www.patrickwhitefield.co.uk/slu.htm then until March 19th
19:43:17 jwyg qopi: other COMMUNIA members have voted, and we are waiting to hear back...
19:43:29 robmyers Ok so to take the example of Ruskin's lectures on art, which would be great for the text (rather than image) part of OpenArtHistory, http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/19164 , it really should be called lectures_on_art.txt in a local /texts/ruskin/ ?
19:43:58 robmyers I'm just worried about a) people thinking it's a different file and b) appropriating other people's work in a confusing way.
19:44:35 qopi bethtilston / jwyg : yeah, at first it seemed to make sense to have events all together, but feeling less like it does now, so perhaps just help each other with cross publicising?
19:44:59 jwyg qopi: or we could brand as 'month of open events'?
19:45:12 jwyg qopi, e.g. if we tried to space throughout month?
19:45:15 robmyers like node.l was?
19:45:22 jwyg robmyers: exactly..
19:45:32 jwyg my only concern with that is that we may overlap..
19:45:40 bethtilston jwyg: that's not a bad idea at all
19:45:51 jwyg it would be great if you could tell us what the main focus of your events will be!
19:45:52 qopi jwyg: yeah something like that could work, I guess that is basically what I meant by "cross publicising" :)
19:46:13 jwyg e.g. our main focus, as usual, is knowledge projects...
19:46:34 jwyg qopi: ok.. that sounds like an interesting option..
19:46:44 qopi jwyg: for me the main focus is having a long open space technology event on, Open EVERYTHING :)
19:46:54 jwyg qopi: of course..
19:47:24 qopi but Chris and Beth have proposed something like "Helping activists change the world through technologies"
19:47:30 qopi as the main theme
19:47:32 jwyg qopi: ok..
19:48:13 qopi I like the feel of that, but not the wording, think we can come up with something more inclusive than "activists" maybe :)
19:48:22 jwyg qopi: one option might be to have a series of domain specific events throughout march, and all help out with all of them?
19:48:29 robmyers people...
19:48:30 bethtilston That's the main focus for me -
19:48:58 jwyg robmyers: :-)
19:48:59 qopi bethtilston: what is? ‘Helping activists change the world through technologies'? or "activists" specifically?
19:49:21 * qopi prefers "people" as robmyers just suggested :)
19:49:32 mchelen robmyers, yep after matching the id number, the title or description can be found, it depends on the storage system buy maybe the file name itself could be kept the same? that one could be located at /texts/ruskin/lectures_on_art/19164-h.htm for example
19:49:32 mchelen *system but
19:49:34 bethtilston qopi: The first part - 'activists' might not be the right word but keen to make it a 'for good' type thing
19:49:39 qopi because lots of people who ARE activists don't self-define as that
19:50:02 bethtilston qopi: Sure, people would be better
19:50:50 * qopi is thinking something like "how can open technologies and practices help improve quality of life and reduce ecological footprint" but somehow said in less words :)
19:51:10 jwyg qopi, bethtilston: can you perhaps expand on the theme a little and how it relates to openness, with some e.g.s?
19:51:32 bethtilston qopi: That sounds good - but, you know, shorter!
19:51:40 robmyers mchelen I like that naming scheme. thank you!
19:51:58 qopi jwyg: personally I want to spread the word about what http://openfarmtech.org and similar are doing
19:52:12 qopi i.e. open appropriate technology for village building
19:53:24 qopi jwyg: I also want to get more people involved in http://opencoin.org (as Joerg presented at last OKCON, I believe)
19:54:07 mchelen robmyers, sure thing, also interface & directories shown to the user could be different than what exists on the server, what is the system being used to store the files?
19:54:08 jwyg yes, i remember...
19:54:15 qopi jwyg: but really, what happens depends on who comes, we've just got to come up with a nice question like "how can open everything help create new systems that make the current ones obsolete?"
19:54:23 jwyg so thematically a bit like http://www.opensustainabilitynetwork.org/
19:54:48 qopi jwyg: oersonally I'd like to see lots of that stuff represented, yes
19:54:53 qopi but that is just me
19:54:58 qopi personally
19:55:05 jwyg thats interesting..
19:55:38 qopi how so? :)
19:56:18 qopi bethtilston: I propose we fix the date for Fri 3rd - Sun 5th April :P
19:56:58 bethtilston That sounds good. Need to get it okayed by everyone - esp Chris, but sounds good to me.
19:57:03 mchelen qopi, have you seen p2pfoundation.net before? opencoin looks interesting, they should fix their https certificate though :)
19:57:04 robmyers mchelen Well it will just be a dumb filesystem in subversion on knowledgeforge.
19:57:05 jwyg it sounds like you could focus specifically on how open projects/systems can help with global problems...
19:57:32 robmyers p2pfoundation are amazing, I have them in my rss feed
19:57:38 jwyg in the context of social/economic/environmental issues...
19:57:57 qopi jwyg: I quite like the idea of lots of thematic stuff leading up to the Everything open space where everyone comes together to try and work out how it all fits together and how we can all work together to make the world a better place sooner rather than later
19:58:12 qopi mchelen: yes, know Michel and p2p foundation well :)
19:58:51 jwyg qopi: well, what about a series of events throughout march, culminating in the open space?
19:58:55 bethtilston I think we need more discussion on the specific focus - I really like all your ideas Josef but worry that I'm not quite sure what fits into 'open' and think if I don't know, lots of people I'd like to come won't either
19:59:37 qopi jwyg: yes "focus specifically on how open projects/systems can help with global problems" is where we coming from I think (hence bethtilston saying we want to focus on people doing stuff "for good") but also locally
20:00:37 mchelen robmyers, ahh ok, will users be meant to check out the svn repo directly, or access via www? do you have a project name yet?
20:00:45 qopi bethtilston: what is unclear about what fits in "open"? lets discuss more now :)
20:01:00 jwyg well, tentatively, what about communia + okcon + world betterment, then an open space at the end?
20:01:00 qopi bethtilston: e.g. to me twitter, whilst a useful technology, isn't open
20:01:02 robmyers open originated as a way of not saying "free", but for knowledge it has usefully evolved to mean something like "open access". For activists, the peer-to-peer, peer production, participatory, open organization side of things might appeal, as would the organizational potential of wikis and sites like riseup.net
20:01:32 robmyers mchelen Directly to start with. OpenArtHistory, inspired by OKFN's OpenLiterature.
20:02:04 mchelen qopi, great to hear, they are one of the best sources of news and discussion on the topic =)
20:02:16 jwyg for knowledge, we have http://opendefinition.org/
20:02:35 jwyg which covers text/image/multimedia/data...
20:02:42 qopi mchelen: yes, although Michel who does all the work is now having to look for a normal job and will most likely have to stop by the end of the year :(
20:02:57 qopi stop doing the great work he is doing that is
20:03:19 bethtilston qopi: sorry, i'm borrowing Jonny's computer - sticky keyboard makes typing difficult
20:03:25 jwyg but, as mark surman and others at openeverything are keen on, there are a proliferation of different meanings/connotations, from popper's open society to open salad bars, that it is interesting to compare/contrast/explore...
20:04:08 qopi to me open is all about open minded people working opening :)
20:04:33 qopi and by working openly I mean in a transparent way that is easy to get involved with
20:04:34 bethtilston qopi: from what you just said, everything i'd like to do fits under the banner - but I'm just worried that it isn't understood well enough. I.e. I wasn't sure what it encompassed
20:05:17 mchelen robmyers, ok cool that should work nicely then, another idea might be to embed the directory structure with file information in an .html so that people could checkout the project and access the catalog through their browser
20:05:45 jwyg qopi: bethtilston, from the OKF's point of view the focus is on material that anyone is free to access, re-use and re-distribute, whether this be government data, scientific research, educational materials, or whatever else..
20:05:58 jwyg hence "from sonnets to statistics, genes to geodata"..
20:06:14 bethtilston I'm thinking of some of the people I'd like to invite - they're much less au fait with 'open' than me. Don't just want geeks there - need to think of a way of 'marketing' it
20:06:32 robmyers mchelen yes a separate view for the structure might be convenient
20:06:47 robmyers jwyg you have a definition don't you? ;-)
20:07:56 jwyg robmyers: exactly i mentioned it just now... http://www.opendefinition.org
20:08:08 qopi bethtilston: how about "how can openness help us create the world we want?" as a question? what do others think of that too?
20:08:18 jwyg for software there are F/OSS definitions...
20:09:08 qopi that is the question we had for WTF although "openness" was "self-organisation and sharing" :P
20:09:09 robmyers oops sorry, lag ;-)
20:09:21 jwyg qopi, bethtilston: just to re-iterate, what about: okcon + communia + worldbetterment (i.e. how can openness help us create the world we want) + an 'open barcamp' at the end?
20:09:40 robmyers qopi - "as peers" is good, or you end up as Jemima Puddleduck...
20:10:48 qopi jwyg: I like you're suggestion other than I'm keen for worldbetterment and barcamp to be the same thing
20:11:06 qopi as in what I and bethtilston and co are interested in doing is an open space on worldbetterment as you put it
20:11:16 qopi but tied into the whole Open Everything theme
20:11:33 bethtilston I like the question - I think maybe we'd better change the title of the event from OEOS to something more 'reclaim the webby' - does what it says on the tin
20:11:42 * qopi has to go soon - lift back to farm due to arrive in 10-15mins
20:12:12 bethtilston Want to know more about okcon and communia. Poss to email details to list.
20:12:15 mchelen qopi, that is sad to hear, maybe there is a way more members of the community can get involved to help out?
20:12:39 bethtilston qopi: I have to go soon too
20:13:01 jwyg qopi: as a thought, we could have lots of open events with specific focuses... and open everything could be like a concluding event?
20:13:12 qopi robmyers: are you suggesting "how can openness help us create the world we want as peers?" or somesuch?
20:13:27 jwyg bethtilston.. COMMUNIA is EU policy network. theme for event will be Towards an infrastructure for public information: finding, re-using and interlinking public sector content and data
20:13:32 robmyers how can we as peers create the world we want through openness?
20:13:45 qopi mchelen: well, he's got a family to feed, and so needs at least 12k euro a year, ideally 24k
20:13:58 jwyg for last OKCon, see http://www.okfn.org/okcon/2008/after/
20:14:12 bethtilston jwyg: Thanks
20:14:14 qopi mchelen: but yeah, I and others have proposed some kind of resource pooling action in support of p2p foundation or something
20:14:44 * qopi likes the word "infrastructure" :)
20:15:14 * qopi thinks peer-investing in land and infrastructure is the way forward :)
20:15:50 bethtilston qopi: How can we post this discussion on the list?
20:16:12 jwyg bethtilston, all meetings are archived at http://okfn.org/wiki/meetings
20:16:30 jwyg just as a final comment before qopi has to go..
20:16:41 bethtilston Ok, link to that then.
20:16:50 * qopi listens :)
20:17:14 jwyg i think it would be really great if we could co-ordinate events with a strong theme that complemented each other as much as possible
20:17:35 jwyg with the aim of having an unthemed barcamp at the end to tie everything together...
20:18:03 jwyg hence earlier events generate food for thought for final OpenEverything event
20:18:37 jwyg which is barcampish in the sense that agenda/themes are totally generated on the day...
20:19:03 jwyg i think its harder to promote a totally open 'open everything' event, without some prior concrete projects, themes, etc...
20:20:28 jwyg i think having an event specifically aimed at what openness can do for certain (specific) global/local problems is really interesting...
20:20:53 jwyg and could be a strong event in itself...
20:21:03 jwyg what do people think?
20:22:05 qopi jwyg, well, yes, I agree, which is why I think the barcampish (I prefer Open Space because its the same thing with a longer history) event shouldn't be totally open but should have a clear question that it is trying to address such as the creating the world we want one I suggested earlier
20:22:26 bethtilston I like the ideas very much
20:23:11 bethtilston Need to do more research before I say yes to anything though. Will need to discuss with others
20:23:52 qopi cool, well been good to chat
20:23:58 qopi shame no one else made it
20:24:03 qopi until soon...
20:24:07 qopi bye :)
20:24:11 bethtilston Have fun on your farm.
20:24:11 jwyg qopi, but in a way the open everything events are not directed at specific questions, but see what people are interested in... e.g. some people want to tackle certain problems, some people want to share their research, some want to make money..
20:24:17 jwyg ah..
20:24:31 jwyg alright.. we can continue to discuss via email :-)
20:24:39 bethtilston Bye all, I've got to go too.
20:24:43 * bethtilston has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
20:24:44 qopi jwyg: yeah, because they are not running Open Space Technology events
20:24:55 jwyg alright: bethtilston, qopi, be in touch soon!
20:25:00 * qopi actually, really leaves :)
20:25:05 * qopi has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092510])
20:26:26 jwyg robmyers: can concentrate on openarthistory now! :-)
20:27:14 robmyers oh well I don't really have anything extra to say. the file organization ideas are useful, as would any input on standards be.
20:30:15 jwyg ahh yes.. i remember seing a mailing list that might be of relevance...
20:31:43 jwyg *looks*
20:32:10 jwyg robmyers: have you tried on any of the jiscmail metadata lists?
20:37:50 robmyers I will take a look
20:38:01 robmyers good suggestion
20:40:35 jwyg robmyers: alright.. i better shoot off...
20:40:41 robmyers sure
20:40:51 robmyers lots of useful input.
20:40:52 jwyg robmyers: good to chat, albeit very briefly! :-)